But there should not be a blanked requirement to get vaccinated. You should be able to go to any public space (e.g. parks, sidewalks) w/o being vaccinated, as well as any private space that doesn’t require proof of vaccination.
Measles hangs out in the air for like two hours. https://www.cdc.gov/measles/causes/index.html . You’d be dangerous on the sidewalks and in the parks, and extremely dangerous in any indoor space.
The freedom to cause an outbreak is not a particularly valuable freedom. The freedom to live life because there’s not another measles outbreak is.
“My personal freedom is more important than yours and your safety” is being a huge asshole, and society has no obligation to support that behavior.
However, the principles are the same, I should absolutely be free to make stupid decisions, otherwise I’m not free and my only choice is to hopefully elect someone who will force me to do things that I agree with. We should remove force from the equation entirely and merely make consequences for stupid decisions transparent
Your freedom to make stupid decisions will often clash with other people’s freedom to live. Your individual freedom is less important than everyone else’s freedom to be safe from measles.
Furthermore, with seatbelts, I’m a stakeholder in your ass not flying through the window and dying. I pay in various ways for your health care, and I lose out when you die. When you hurt yourself, you hurt everyone.
The nuance and where we disagree is where that line is. “You wasted your money on a shit video game” for me is on the “that’s small enough to not worry about” side. Vaccinations, helmets, seatbelts, those have low costs for the individual and large benefits for society.
You’d be dangerous on the sidewalks and in the parks, and extremely dangerous in any indoor space.
I 100% agree. That’s why the rest of us take vaccines to protect ourselves and the ones we love from diseases like this, and those with particular sensitivities (esp. those that cannot use vaccines) take added measures to protect themselves. That’s personal responsibility 101. Enough of us choose to get the measles vaccine that measles isn’t a significant concern anymore.
I think living life w/o getting vaccinated should be possible, but far from convenient. I think you should pay extra for insurance, have to home-school your kids, and not be able to use airplanes, trains, etc. If you spread a disease and it can be traced back to you, you should be changed with criminal negligence and perhaps a few other crimes. If you get locked up, I think forced vaccination should absolutely be on the table (alternative being some kind of body suit to protect guards and other inmates from you, at your expense), unless there’s a private prison that’ll take you that doesn’t require vaccination.
But a law forcing me to put anything into my body will always be immoral, regardless of the intention, because the ends absolutely do not justify the means.
I pay in various ways for your health care, and I lose out when you die.
And you should not. If I am found having died or seriously injured due to not wearing a seatbelt, that should invalidate any kind of public payment, and I think certain private payments could reasonably be reduced as well (e.g. auto insurance may limit medical coverage if safety equipment wasn’t properly used). Making stupid choices should have consequences only for the person making those stupid choices.
Vaccinations, helmets, seatbelts, those have low costs for the individual and large benefits for society.
I think you’re overstating the benefits for society. If I don’t wear a helmet and die, how does that realistically hurt society? Public benefits and whatnot can absolutely be limited due to negligence. Vaccines are more interesting, but again, I think it’s not really an issue in practice because most people get them, and we can also allow insurance premiums to skyrocket for those who choose not to.
I am totally on-board with limiting protections for people who make stupid choices, but I am not on-board with banning the stupid choices entirely. Make the stupid choices less attractive, but don’t threaten jail time or whatever.
Enough of us choose to get the measles vaccine that measles isn’t a significant concern anymore.
If it’s not a mandate, people will “choose” not to do it, and then people will suffer and die. There are some things, like vaccines, that the cost:benefit is extremely clear.
I think living life w/o getting vaccinated should be possible, but far from convenient. I think you should pay extra for insurance, have to home-school your kids, and not be able to use airplanes, trains, etc
Sucks for the kids. Also how are you going to enforce that? An ankle bracelet? How are you going to make whole the people harmed by someone decides their personal freedom is the only freedom that matters?
unless there’s a private prison that’ll take you that doesn’t require vaccination.
Sucks for the other prisoners who get measles because the private prison didn’t want to pay for vaccines.
But a law forcing me to put anything into my body will always be immoral
I do not accept this axiom.
And you should not. If I am killed or seriously injured due to not wearing a seatbelt, that should invalidate any kind of public payment,
I’m not talking about literal financial transactions. When you die because you didn’t wear a helmet, I lose out on the investment in you. All those years of education, gone. Any job training you had? In the trash. Your mother taking off work to grieve? Ripples of suck spreading through society.
I think you’re overstating the benefits for society. If I don’t wear a helmet and die, how does that realistically hurt society?
Presumably you live in a society with people who care about you. If the lead front eng at work died, the project is going to be delayed, we’re all going to be unhappy, we have to ramp someone up. The whole company could fail as a result.
That’s not even counting the non-work connections.
Things are connected. Someone dying or being seriously injured is a big rock to drop in the pond, and those ripples affect many people. It’s not just money stuff. It’s also social and opportunity costs.
If it’s not a mandate, people will “choose” not to do it, and then people will suffer and die.
Yes, that’s one of the consequences of stupid choices. The point for a society to figure out is how to contain those consequences to those who made a stupid choice.
Also how are you going to enforce that?
The same way we did it during the COVID-19 pandemic, send proof of vaccination to your insurance, airlines, etc. I did that when visiting Canada by car, and people did it when taking airplanes for travel. It worked fine. It’s a little more complicated when the number of vaccinations goes up, but if a company like an airline really cares about it, they can set the parameters for how you can prove it. Then its up to customers to decide whether that process is worth doing, or if they’ll just use a competitor.
But the fact is, many businesses won’t bother unless it’s really important, like if there’s a breakout or something of a specific disease.
Sucks for the other prisoners who get measles because the private prison didn’t want to pay for vaccines.
Prisoners should be able to refuse to go to a private prison and the state should accommodate that.
Ripples of suck spreading through society.
Sure, and that’s why safety equipment and preventative medicine is so important. But at the end of the day, it’s my life to throw away, and nobody else has any valid claim to my education, abilities, etc. Someone who cares about those around them will take the necessary precautions to preserve their life for the benefit of those around them, but that decision should remain theirs.
The only time I think it’s valid to step in and override someone’s choice is if that choice was not made with a clear conscience.
Measles hangs out in the air for like two hours. https://www.cdc.gov/measles/causes/index.html . You’d be dangerous on the sidewalks and in the parks, and extremely dangerous in any indoor space.
The freedom to cause an outbreak is not a particularly valuable freedom. The freedom to live life because there’s not another measles outbreak is.
“My personal freedom is more important than yours and your safety” is being a huge asshole, and society has no obligation to support that behavior.
Your freedom to make stupid decisions will often clash with other people’s freedom to live. Your individual freedom is less important than everyone else’s freedom to be safe from measles.
Furthermore, with seatbelts, I’m a stakeholder in your ass not flying through the window and dying. I pay in various ways for your health care, and I lose out when you die. When you hurt yourself, you hurt everyone.
The nuance and where we disagree is where that line is. “You wasted your money on a shit video game” for me is on the “that’s small enough to not worry about” side. Vaccinations, helmets, seatbelts, those have low costs for the individual and large benefits for society.
I 100% agree. That’s why the rest of us take vaccines to protect ourselves and the ones we love from diseases like this, and those with particular sensitivities (esp. those that cannot use vaccines) take added measures to protect themselves. That’s personal responsibility 101. Enough of us choose to get the measles vaccine that measles isn’t a significant concern anymore.
I think living life w/o getting vaccinated should be possible, but far from convenient. I think you should pay extra for insurance, have to home-school your kids, and not be able to use airplanes, trains, etc. If you spread a disease and it can be traced back to you, you should be changed with criminal negligence and perhaps a few other crimes. If you get locked up, I think forced vaccination should absolutely be on the table (alternative being some kind of body suit to protect guards and other inmates from you, at your expense), unless there’s a private prison that’ll take you that doesn’t require vaccination.
But a law forcing me to put anything into my body will always be immoral, regardless of the intention, because the ends absolutely do not justify the means.
And you should not. If I am found having died or seriously injured due to not wearing a seatbelt, that should invalidate any kind of public payment, and I think certain private payments could reasonably be reduced as well (e.g. auto insurance may limit medical coverage if safety equipment wasn’t properly used). Making stupid choices should have consequences only for the person making those stupid choices.
I think you’re overstating the benefits for society. If I don’t wear a helmet and die, how does that realistically hurt society? Public benefits and whatnot can absolutely be limited due to negligence. Vaccines are more interesting, but again, I think it’s not really an issue in practice because most people get them, and we can also allow insurance premiums to skyrocket for those who choose not to.
I am totally on-board with limiting protections for people who make stupid choices, but I am not on-board with banning the stupid choices entirely. Make the stupid choices less attractive, but don’t threaten jail time or whatever.
If it’s not a mandate, people will “choose” not to do it, and then people will suffer and die. There are some things, like vaccines, that the cost:benefit is extremely clear.
Sucks for the kids. Also how are you going to enforce that? An ankle bracelet? How are you going to make whole the people harmed by someone decides their personal freedom is the only freedom that matters?
Sucks for the other prisoners who get measles because the private prison didn’t want to pay for vaccines.
I do not accept this axiom.
I’m not talking about literal financial transactions. When you die because you didn’t wear a helmet, I lose out on the investment in you. All those years of education, gone. Any job training you had? In the trash. Your mother taking off work to grieve? Ripples of suck spreading through society.
Presumably you live in a society with people who care about you. If the lead front eng at work died, the project is going to be delayed, we’re all going to be unhappy, we have to ramp someone up. The whole company could fail as a result.
That’s not even counting the non-work connections.
Things are connected. Someone dying or being seriously injured is a big rock to drop in the pond, and those ripples affect many people. It’s not just money stuff. It’s also social and opportunity costs.
Yes, that’s one of the consequences of stupid choices. The point for a society to figure out is how to contain those consequences to those who made a stupid choice.
The same way we did it during the COVID-19 pandemic, send proof of vaccination to your insurance, airlines, etc. I did that when visiting Canada by car, and people did it when taking airplanes for travel. It worked fine. It’s a little more complicated when the number of vaccinations goes up, but if a company like an airline really cares about it, they can set the parameters for how you can prove it. Then its up to customers to decide whether that process is worth doing, or if they’ll just use a competitor.
But the fact is, many businesses won’t bother unless it’s really important, like if there’s a breakout or something of a specific disease.
Prisoners should be able to refuse to go to a private prison and the state should accommodate that.
Sure, and that’s why safety equipment and preventative medicine is so important. But at the end of the day, it’s my life to throw away, and nobody else has any valid claim to my education, abilities, etc. Someone who cares about those around them will take the necessary precautions to preserve their life for the benefit of those around them, but that decision should remain theirs.
The only time I think it’s valid to step in and override someone’s choice is if that choice was not made with a clear conscience.