I totally get your stance on Hamas and I think most of us feel this way. Hamas are not the good guys. I don’t think Hamas has gathered a lot of sympathy at least in the Western world, e.g. in German media they’re still always called either terrorists or radical islamists/jihadists. But it’s also mind-boggling to me how much legitimacy they have gained through October 7. The world shouldn’t work like this but it keeps rewarding ruthless violence.

And I think another part of the problem is seeing global conflicts like football matches. Like in this conflict someone is team Ukraine and in this other conflict they‘re actually team Russia/Iran/China/… because ABC. But how can people think like that? We should always be on the side of humanity & the principle that every person on this planet has a right to live in safety, freedom & dignity.

I’m just really really dreading the double standards applied to people based on whether or not they’re useful to us. Of course we can’t intervene everywhere, it would already be big if we would stop sending weapons and ammo, and if we would stop providing rhetoric cover for this genocide. Or if we would stop being partners with the genocidal Azerbaijani government. Like we could just stop supporting genocidal regimes but because of money and power we ignore or even excuse what they do.

Another thing I saw is Russian trolls are hijacking the Gaza war to destabilize Western countries. I think this contributes to the distrust in someone calling out the West‘s hypocrisy. It became so Russian propaganda tool to do so, and naturally those propagandists will also be extremely pro-Russian. Like wtf.

Anyway, thanks for exchange, I totally feel and share your frustration. I would like to end this with some positive or encouraging note but honestly wouldn’t know what that would be, politics is so fucked.

I find it very strange to tell someone you know nothing about that they have no clue what they’re talking about simply because they disagree with you.

The mental gymnastics you’re doing to assert that the situation in Ukraine and Gaza would be different is either driven by racism (which I don’t want to accuse you of) or ignorance out of a geopolitical interest.

First of all, intention is central to the legal definition of genocide. You cannot accidentally commit genocide. Both Russia and Israel are very open about their intentions and it’s clear that they want to eradicate the Ukrainians/Palestinians as a people and claim the land for themselves.

The only difference is that we’re arming the victim in the case of Ukraine and the perpetrators in the case of Israel. If you’re interested in UN reports then feel free to read their assessments on the war crimes, ethnic cleansings, Apartheid, illegal occupation, indefinite mass imprisonments without charge, torture, sexual abuse during said imprisonment, and most recently on the genocide. Feel free to also read the ICJ case by South Africa.

If your empathy extends only to some people it’s up to you to figure out why. It only proves my point that Europe has no credibility to begin with. Our support for Ukraine is purely driven by our own interest to fight back against Russia. Ukrainians are nothing but a pawn for us, although it’s a convenient narrative that they’re the victims and we’re doing it for a greater cause.

It’s not like the West is any more humane, we’re just committing all the atrocities far away from ourselves. It’s objectively better for almost anyone to live in a Western country than in the places we oppress. And I wouldn’t want to live in Russia or China either.

I totally agree that Russia shouldn’t have power. But how much does the Western power help middle easterners? Or how much did it help in Korea, Vietnam, …

So it’s fighting Russia’s power isn’t based on a consistent moral framework. It’s just done because our own quality of life is better if Russia has less power.

Sorry, I got carried away for a second. I think there were some white doctors there or something at some point so that confused me

Ah yeah the typical whataboutism accusation. Whataboutism is certainly a problem when trolls try to derail debates.

In this case though the statement that Europe would lose all credibility if Ukraine loses relies on the premise that there’s any credibility left to begin with. I’m challenging that premise.

It’s blatantly obvious that the support for Ukraine was always just about geopolitics, and never about moral or values. Now, the geopolitical interest seems to have shifted, hence no more support for Ukraine. See e.g. Scholz not even giving any reasons for denying support, except that he says so.

I think all of this is terrible and I want Ukraine to be supported, but our dear Western leaders are morally bankrupt so I’m afraid it may not happen.

As if Europe or the „Western“ world in general would still have any credibility with the Gaza genocide.

I truly feel sorry for Ukrainians as the support for the resistance was never about actual solidarity or values.

Germany very generously described, would say they’re also rather center to center right.