i can definitely see it as a “hostile takeover” of sorts, but this is something the project has decided on, for better or worse. i can understand not wanting to learn a new language that you may not like or agree with, but that means you will have to divest yourself from a project that adopts that language to a certain extent. Rust is—again for better or worse—something Linus thinks is good for the project, and thus learning Rust at least enough to not break the builds is a requirement for the project. i can’t imagine working on a software team where a chunk of people refuse to take part in a major portion of it simply because they’re not immediately familiar with it. that does sound like old crotchety behavior. on the other hand it’s tragic that so many people with all this experience are being forced into a design decision that arguably may have been made hastily and that they had little say in.
that makes this definitely an old guard vs new issue. and maybe it is an olive branch for the old guard to say “let’s just take our time with this.” but we have crossed a threshold where seeing a new project in C is the oddity while new projects in Rust are commonplace. Rust is mainstream now, and “i don’t want to learn this” is a dogshit technical justification.
Rust is—again for better or worse—something Linus thinks is good for the project, and thus learning Rust at least enough to not break the builds is a requirement for the project.
That misrepresents the situation. Linus accepted Rust provisionally, and only into certain parts of the kernel (drivers). It’s more of an experiment than what you wrote would suggest.
Rust is mainstream now,
Rust is highly visible now, due in no small part to its deafening evangelism. But it is not remotely mainstream in the sense of being a prevailing language, nor in the sense of being representative of the majority. It brings to the table a novel way to solve certain problems, and that is useful, but let’s not mistake that as the only way or those as the only problems.
Rust is mainstream now, and “i don’t want to learn this” is a dogshit technical justification.
i’m not really here to advocate for Rust in the kernel. i will say that i work on Rust professionally at a Fortune 100 company that is in the process of adopting it, which may skew my perception of it as mainstream, just to get the bias out of the way.
it is part of the project though, no? drivers still need to be interfaced with. so the people working on driver interfaces should be comfortable with it, again at least to preserve basic builds and do basic code review. this is specifically in reference to the issue that this thread is ostensibly started from: a kernel dev was getting worked up about “having to learn Rust”. so no, i don’t think it’s a strawman to point out the real people denying or frustrating patches just because they don’t understand the language. overly harsh maybe but not a total mischaracterization.
Your perspective makes more sense when you put it that way.
I think it’s important to understand that “having to learn Rust” is a proxy for “having to learn, become proficient in, become expert in, commit to regularly using, and take on the additional work of managing bindings between a large continually changing codebase and Rust, with no foreseeable end”. Multiply that by the number of kernel developers who would be affected, and remember that Rust in particular is famously time-consuming and (at least for some) often painful to use.
It’s not, “I don’t want to learn this”. (The people maintaining the kernel surely learn new things all the time in the course of their work, after all, as do most advanced programmers.) It’s more like, “I cannot reasonably take on such an enormous additional workload.”
The Rust camp in this disagreement doesn’t seem to grasp that yet. If everyone involved figures out a way to bridge that gap, I expect the frustrations will go away.
The thing here is that (even with things like the vfs interface), linux doesn’t have internal SPIs.
The friction here is that the rust devs want to write down the semantics in a formal fashion, and the C devs are used to a world where the semantics are implicit in the C code.
I thought the engagement in the video was the kind of useful feedback that was needed and asked for: “I’m not sure the semantics of this specific interface are precisely that,” which might have been out of place, but getting detail-focused feedback to an example is what you are going to have to expect from people who fit the role of VFS experts.
Ted was being an unconscionably rude fucker, but - diatribe aside - his process question is a reasonable one, although his solution “well you’re SOL” was poor, undiplomatic, and unhelpful.
Ted was being an unconscionably rude fucker, but - diatribe aside - his process question is a reasonable one, although his solution “well you’re SOL” was poor, undiplomatic, and unhelpful.
Maybe so. What I watched of the video had little surrounding context, though.
I’ve seen more than a few abrasive outbursts from people who care a lot about what they’re doing. When I see video of one, I try to keep in mind that they don’t often come out of nowhere. There’s a good chance that there was a much longer preceding exchange (perhaps not even in person) wherein the speaker had been trying to explain their perspective calmly and politely, but the other person was persistently missing it, due either to stubborn selfishness or to honest lack of understanding. Frustrated people sometimes resort to a blunt approach to try to get their message through.
In any case, I’m with you in noticing that important issues are being raised here. They’re not easy to solve, so it’s no surprise to see frustration along the way, but they still might lead to a good outcome.
Drew DeVault recently wrote up an idea similar to one that has been on my mind lately: What might come of a bunch of passionate Rust developers making a new kernel exposing Linux ABIs? It would be much faster and easier than a new kernel from scratch, because there’s already a working reference implementation in C. That seems like an effective way to work through design challenges without disrupting the existing system and development process, and once proven to work, might guide a better-defined path to integration with (or even replacement of) the C kernel. It would certainly have less friction than what we’re seeing now.
That’s an interesting notion (although it underestimates the effort, I think). Honestly, having machinery to write down contract semantics in a fashion amenable to automated proofs (meaning, does it type-check?) is massively promising; and I’m a dyed-in-the-wool C hacker. I would hope that the public exposure of this bad behaviour causes a few moments of self-reflection.
I suspect that attempting to chase a moving target of describing C apis with rust is just an avenue for burnout, unless there really is a mechanism for getting fixes back in the other direction, and professional respect flowing in both directions. That would be a massive shame, and an incredible missed opportunity.
It looks to me like there’s a bit of deadline ignoring going on, but even if it really is at heart reluctance to learn rust, aren’t a lot of linux developers volunteers? Getting cross that a bunch of volunteers don’t want to commit to permanently supporting rust (with its famously steep learning curve and famously hard to please borrow checker) seems a bit entitled to me.
“You there! Volunteers! Get on with doing exactly what I want exactly the way I want it and before you release your next version. Stop resisting the inevitable rise of your new priority: doing things our way. It’s better, so you’re wrong. Quickly now, stop resisting.”
Ah OK, yes. Then “Hey, Intel, Red Hat, Linaro, IBM and 500 other companies and a bunch of other people, You have to make this massive C project rust compliant otherwise you’re tech luddites.” It’s still entitled.
i can definitely see it as a “hostile takeover” of sorts, but this is something the project has decided on, for better or worse. i can understand not wanting to learn a new language that you may not like or agree with, but that means you will have to divest yourself from a project that adopts that language to a certain extent. Rust is—again for better or worse—something Linus thinks is good for the project, and thus learning Rust at least enough to not break the builds is a requirement for the project. i can’t imagine working on a software team where a chunk of people refuse to take part in a major portion of it simply because they’re not immediately familiar with it. that does sound like old crotchety behavior. on the other hand it’s tragic that so many people with all this experience are being forced into a design decision that arguably may have been made hastily and that they had little say in.
that makes this definitely an old guard vs new issue. and maybe it is an olive branch for the old guard to say “let’s just take our time with this.” but we have crossed a threshold where seeing a new project in C is the oddity while new projects in Rust are commonplace. Rust is mainstream now, and “i don’t want to learn this” is a dogshit technical justification.
That misrepresents the situation. Linus accepted Rust provisionally, and only into certain parts of the kernel (drivers). It’s more of an experiment than what you wrote would suggest.
Rust is highly visible now, due in no small part to its deafening evangelism. But it is not remotely mainstream in the sense of being a prevailing language, nor in the sense of being representative of the majority. It brings to the table a novel way to solve certain problems, and that is useful, but let’s not mistake that as the only way or those as the only problems.
That is a straw man.
i’m not really here to advocate for Rust in the kernel. i will say that i work on Rust professionally at a Fortune 100 company that is in the process of adopting it, which may skew my perception of it as mainstream, just to get the bias out of the way.
it is part of the project though, no? drivers still need to be interfaced with. so the people working on driver interfaces should be comfortable with it, again at least to preserve basic builds and do basic code review. this is specifically in reference to the issue that this thread is ostensibly started from: a kernel dev was getting worked up about “having to learn Rust”. so no, i don’t think it’s a strawman to point out the real people denying or frustrating patches just because they don’t understand the language. overly harsh maybe but not a total mischaracterization.
Your perspective makes more sense when you put it that way.
I think it’s important to understand that “having to learn Rust” is a proxy for “having to learn, become proficient in, become expert in, commit to regularly using, and take on the additional work of managing bindings between a large continually changing codebase and Rust, with no foreseeable end”. Multiply that by the number of kernel developers who would be affected, and remember that Rust in particular is famously time-consuming and (at least for some) often painful to use.
It’s not, “I don’t want to learn this”. (The people maintaining the kernel surely learn new things all the time in the course of their work, after all, as do most advanced programmers.) It’s more like, “I cannot reasonably take on such an enormous additional workload.”
The Rust camp in this disagreement doesn’t seem to grasp that yet. If everyone involved figures out a way to bridge that gap, I expect the frustrations will go away.
The thing here is that (even with things like the vfs interface), linux doesn’t have internal SPIs.
The friction here is that the rust devs want to write down the semantics in a formal fashion, and the C devs are used to a world where the semantics are implicit in the C code.
I thought the engagement in the video was the kind of useful feedback that was needed and asked for: “I’m not sure the semantics of this specific interface are precisely that,” which might have been out of place, but getting detail-focused feedback to an example is what you are going to have to expect from people who fit the role of VFS experts.
Ted was being an unconscionably rude fucker, but - diatribe aside - his process question is a reasonable one, although his solution “well you’re SOL” was poor, undiplomatic, and unhelpful.
Maybe so. What I watched of the video had little surrounding context, though.
I’ve seen more than a few abrasive outbursts from people who care a lot about what they’re doing. When I see video of one, I try to keep in mind that they don’t often come out of nowhere. There’s a good chance that there was a much longer preceding exchange (perhaps not even in person) wherein the speaker had been trying to explain their perspective calmly and politely, but the other person was persistently missing it, due either to stubborn selfishness or to honest lack of understanding. Frustrated people sometimes resort to a blunt approach to try to get their message through.
In any case, I’m with you in noticing that important issues are being raised here. They’re not easy to solve, so it’s no surprise to see frustration along the way, but they still might lead to a good outcome.
Drew DeVault recently wrote up an idea similar to one that has been on my mind lately: What might come of a bunch of passionate Rust developers making a new kernel exposing Linux ABIs? It would be much faster and easier than a new kernel from scratch, because there’s already a working reference implementation in C. That seems like an effective way to work through design challenges without disrupting the existing system and development process, and once proven to work, might guide a better-defined path to integration with (or even replacement of) the C kernel. It would certainly have less friction than what we’re seeing now.
https://drewdevault.com/2024/08/30/2024-08-30-Rust-in-Linux-revisited.html
That’s an interesting notion (although it underestimates the effort, I think). Honestly, having machinery to write down contract semantics in a fashion amenable to automated proofs (meaning, does it type-check?) is massively promising; and I’m a dyed-in-the-wool C hacker. I would hope that the public exposure of this bad behaviour causes a few moments of self-reflection.
I suspect that attempting to chase a moving target of describing C apis with rust is just an avenue for burnout, unless there really is a mechanism for getting fixes back in the other direction, and professional respect flowing in both directions. That would be a massive shame, and an incredible missed opportunity.
It looks to me like there’s a bit of deadline ignoring going on, but even if it really is at heart reluctance to learn rust, aren’t a lot of linux developers volunteers? Getting cross that a bunch of volunteers don’t want to commit to permanently supporting rust (with its famously steep learning curve and famously hard to please borrow checker) seems a bit entitled to me.
“You there! Volunteers! Get on with doing exactly what I want exactly the way I want it and before you release your next version. Stop resisting the inevitable rise of your new priority: doing things our way. It’s better, so you’re wrong. Quickly now, stop resisting.”
No, the vast majority of linux developers are professionally employed to do it.
Ah OK, yes. Then “Hey, Intel, Red Hat, Linaro, IBM and 500 other companies and a bunch of other people, You have to make this massive C project rust compliant otherwise you’re tech luddites.” It’s still entitled.
What you describe would, indeed, be risible. Fortunately it’s merely histrionic twaddle.
I mean, if you mean “Rustplaining is commonplace”, yeah.