I’m probably just out of the loop, but what the hell is up with slapping “Punk” after some random word and trying to pass it off as a thing?
I know cyberpunk, I know steampunk, I know solarpunk, and those I can accept as “more than an aesthetic”, tho steampunk is mostly an aesthetic… but then you have for example frostpunk (a game I know nothing about), cypherpunk, silkpunk, etc. (I don’t really know how to find other bastardizations for examples, but I know I’ve come across other random nouns followed by “punk” and I find it super weird and confusing)
Is it just capitalizing on the cyberpunk/steampunk fad for naming, or do these other “punk” things actually have a legitimate claim of being punk? Is all this ___punk watering down the meaning or am I old man yells at cloud meme here?
Asking us is so questionpunk.
Nice, very metapunk.
Thispunk.
Questioncore, lemmypunk
Your response is so artdecopunk
Punk indicates rebellion against the status quo as part of the theme. If that isn’t part of it, then IMO it has no place in the name.
I tend to agree with that sentiment. Hence the confusion over everything being __punk.
What if i’m rebelling against the status quo of rebelling against the status quo?
You’re a conservative
-Core is the new term for just aesthetics, and I think that’s much more fitting over punk. Though in the case of steampunk, it’s one of the oldest -punks so getting people to swap over to steamcore or something would probably be met with a lot of opposition.
-core predates steampunk as a term by decades. -Core was generally only used when describing musical genre mixing in an attempt to clarify the roots of a particular group’s sound.
The only -punk terms in use prior to the 2000’s were cyberpunk, crust punk, and punk all of which were used to indicate a level of rebellion. Punk is being used in a similar way -core was until steampunk rose in popularity followed immediately by dieselpunk and atompunk cementing the concept of [powersource]-aesthetic as the primary defining trait of a fantasy genre which easily found it’s way into use as a descriptor for an aesthetic that would be expected within that fantasy setting. Things get confused again with the more recent solarpunk (follows the format) and cottagecore (does not follow the format because it is not a musically defined aesthetic)
It’s a pretty classic case of a newer generation believing they’ve invented something without realizing they’ve actually misunderstood prior usage due to limiting their sphere of influences to their peergroup. These are the same types of people who would call people posers for not conforming to the punk aesthetic because they never understood what punk actually was beyond a vector to fit into a group (and all the irony that entails in the context of punk)
Yeah, its infuriating that punk has become a suffix.
There is nothing punk about steampunk, dieselpunk, atompunk. They are just fantasy technological scenarios / art styles.
Cyberpunk has an both a recognizable aesthetic and a whole lot of political, social and philosophical views baked into it. You get the punks in cyberpunk as either a direct ideological opposition to the power of corporations, or as an indirect result of said corpos creating a hell world for 99% of people.
There is nothing inherently rebellious about worlds or characters within worlds with more prevalent / advanced steam or diesel or nuclear power.
Solarpunk arguably has some actual punk to it if you actually try to follow the idea of personally minimizing your fossil fuel usage, but mostly its a utopian or post-dystopian setting / art style.
Its now like -gate being affixed to any kind of publicized controversy.
Most people do not understand what Watergate even was and why it was so significant.
Solarpunk is pretty explicitly political as a kind of antithesis to the cyberpunk future.
I agree, of all the modern terms, solarpunk is the only one to actually fit punk, even if it is a bit more abstract. At it’s core, the idea is still rooted in rejecting societal norms and is inherently political, so it works.
Lul I’ve had to enlighten people on that last point of yours. Me not dressing punk doesn’t mean I’m not, it just means you won’t see it coming when I throw a brick through your window cause I look normal in khaki shorts.
I love you.
Love you too, hope you have a lovely day.
another example of an “older” -punk, if it interests anyone, is splatterpunk, used primarily in the 80’s ^^
definitely rebellious counterculture in its roots as well. very simplified summary is some authors felt stifled that horror was increasingly getting very “literary” and threw everything extreme at the wall
(decent article from 1991 explaining it: here )
Oh wow I totally forgot about splatterpunk, you’re right.
I was aware it was a pre-existing term, but it’s seeing a bit of resurgence, even in music, presumably because the younger generations think they’re inventing things left and right.
What on earth is crust-punk by the way? First I’ve ever heard of that.
Someone already got you covered on crustpunks.
These new terms have a lot more to do with where people gather on the Internet than anything else. Explains why they’ve shifted so heavily toward visual aspects because their likely first exposure to -punk was seeing cyberpunk or steampunk in film or games and then seeking out community around them hoping to capture some of that mystique for themselves.
Cottagecore is definitely the child of Pinterest x Alt girls wanting to be different when alt went too mainstream to stand out. (Which is kinda punk, but for the wrong reasons.)
What on earth is crust-punk by the way?
music genre:
punk rock but with extreme metal elements, bassy and dirty (also known as stenchcore)a type of punk person: panhandling, squatting, and/or homeless punk person who is homeless often by choice (also known as gutter punks)
(they also tend to be associated with each other)
While I agree it’s infuriating the use of -punk for non-rebellious things, there were several other -punks before 2000s. The main one that comes to mind is Gothic-punk, which has been used in Vampire the masquerade since 91 to express the game’s gothic and rebellious influences.
Yes! Ok that probably helps a lot. Because I’ve seen a HUGE rise in _core (cottagecore, goblin core, Forrest core, witch core, etc. and that’s just here on Lemmy)
I hope that takes off more and leaves Punk behind so it can fit better. :) I’m sure the distinction exists for a reason.
And yeah steampunk is sort of the odd duck in what the other major __punk actually hit, but I did have some friends waaaaaaay back when steampunk was brand new, big into it, and they took it all the way to the social changes necessary for never evolving past the Industrial Revolution… so I’m probably heavily biased by that (then again in highschool they had canes, waistcoats, and top hats, and basically cosplayed as English gentlemen all the time so… probably not an ideal sample!)
That’s so punk-core.
Brian Posehn: Dude you’re both wrong, it’s CORE.
Mr. Show, almost always relevant.
That’s what I came here to ask. Isn’t -core kind of the same but only for aesthetics?
And there I have my answer.
Core-core is the shit
We are in our suffix-punk arc. We’re such word-pilled portmanteau-maxxers.
That’s so punkmanteau
I believe the term punk has kind of drifted towards a catch-all term to describe something that clashes against what is considered the norm for most people.
There are definitely traditional punk themes in genres like cyberpunk and solarpunk. I feel like with dieselpunk and steampunk it’s largely a matter aesthetics.
Kind of an easy way to describe broad themes. If you are looking for a game similar to Mad Max for example with a post apocalypse desert that’s full of scavengers it might be easier to just use the term desertpunk.
Typically speaking in the aesthetic sense, _punk means taking a certain look to its extreme. Cyberpunk of course infusing everything with computer technology, steampunk infusing everything with the looks of a steam powered machine, etc.
Starfield was described once as having its aesthetic “NASApunk,” which sounded really cool to me when I heard it. I expected white and black, gold foil, etc. Which isn’t really how the end product ended which was a bit disappointing, but the point remained that calling it “NASApunk” had me immediately expecting a certain aesthetic.
In the case of Frostpunk, I am not sure. It takes place in a frozen world, but it doesn’t have an aesthetic to fit that name so it may just be a title.
I think with Frostpunk specifically it’s meant to be more like a portmanteau of Steampunk and Frost, because the vibes in that game are definitely built on the Victorian/Coal power/industrial revolution era aesthetics.
When I think of __punk, I think about it having a whole -way of life- change, not just an aesthetic change. Cyberpunk incorporates all of the dystopia of deeply embedded tech and stuff. Solarpunk is the whole “living with nature” ideal, even steampunk had to reimagine how things would work (tho admittedly that’s way more of an aesthetic than the other two imho).
So it’s basically a meaningless term then? That’s disappointing. I really want to explore other… hypothetical options I suppose.
It’s not meaningless, it’s just evolved into signifying an aesthetic/lifestyle different from the norm. English is a living language, so many words change in meaning over time
I don’t know, crustpunks were a real thing.
What’s preventing you from exploring hypothetical options like Furrypunk, Meatpunk, Tallowpunk, PharmacyPunk, Leatherpunk, or Candlejackpu----
I probably have explored furry punk to some extent - any game/cartoon in which the main character is a non-human animal technically counts for that, I should think. Bonus if they are anthropomorphized. But it’s not called furrypunk afaik, or I’d probably throw that in too.
Beyond that I have no idea what those things even would be. Tho the current state of the US is very meat based so I think you’d have to go vegpunk on that one, at least where I’m at, for it to be an alternative option.
In the case of Frostpunk, I am not sure. It takes place in a frozen world, but it doesn’t have an aesthetic to fit that name so it may just be a title.
Never
I agree that the word punk came to be associated with aesthetics, almost exclusively. But that is very far from where it started, and it is frustrating for those who started it to see it coopted like this. The association of the word with anything other than anti-consumerism is just " branding" at its worst.
I didn’t say anything about how it started, I said what it means as it pertains to aesthetics, which was what I felt was the primary root of the question.
yeah folkpunk, magapunk, its getting wierd. Also whats with putting gay before everything. gay magapunk porn and etc.
Eh, it is kinda watering down the original punk, as a term for what the original punk movements represented. But that’s language. No matter what a word starts out meaning, people can use it for something else. If that new use takes off, there’s nothing that can stop it other than people as a group ceasing that usage. Isn’t that cool? See what I did there?
Tbh though, once a word gets used a new way, and it spreads, it’s just as likely that the original usage fades away. Don’t forget that words like idiot and moron had a more clinical jargon usage originally.
Living languages love shifting. Humans are sort of like birds with words. We collect shiny ones and play with them.
The various _punks and _cores are just a current example of playing with words.
As far as disliking or resisting that kind of appropriation, it can be frustrating. Anyone that was a punk back in the day would likely sneer at some of the _punk iterations, possibly calling anyone using them a fascist (and if you’ve never seen the show The Young Ones, you really should just so you can see an early version of the caricatures of what punks, hippies, and such were. Real life punks and hippies were a much more diverse and interesting thing, but less funny).
My advice as a fellow old dude that knew some of the old school punks? Just shrug and smile. Change is inevitable, might as well just roll with it.
I was a tween when the first version of “punk” came around (yes, that makes me old). I think I can say with authority that the ideals were: anti-corporate, anti-consumerism, and anti-commercialism. Ever since then people have tried to sum it up (and marginalize it) as “DIY.” But that falls well short of what it really was.
Of course, the second it showed any sign of viable popularity, the forces of capitalism, well…, capitalized on it. The obvious examples are bullshit, high production, made-for-tv bands like Green Day getting sold as punk rock. But does anyone remember Urban Outfitters? Holy crap, the open, unashamed corporate pandering!
She may be a Puncke: for many of them, are neither Maid, Widow, nor Wife.
W. Shakespeare, Measure for Measure (1623)
Damn, you really old.
Hah! Ya got me!
But of course I’m talking about the adjective punk, as in " punk rock," which is an entirely other word than the noun puncke, (or, more modern, punk ) which Shakespeare used.
ETA: I don’t mean to imply they’re not related They just aren’t the same word. And one of them was created in the 1970s.
Oh no, I get you. I think we are a similar age.
I was at the Reading Festival in '96 and I think offspring were playing.
There was a slightly older guy stood in the middle of the crowd shouting, you call this punk… This ain’t punk. This ain’t shit.
The kids were laughing at him.
This week in Glasgow Green Day played a gig and all I saw was middle aged men and their daughters wearing matching merch t-shirts.
I’m assuming at some point I travel back in time to '96 to try to stop this.
I’m probably equally old so yeah that’s sort of how I envision it as well.
That helps, actually, more than one might expect.
Punk as a suffix was first made mainstream by cyberpunk, implying a high tech setting with low life, punk anti authority DIY characters. The next big use was steampunk, which was (as far as I know) purely an aesthetic for cosplay / costuming. Now it’s a general term for aesthetic, such as desert punk, atom punk, or solar punk, where the punk part completely lost its original meaning.
Alphabet boys are excellent at dividing and conquering. The only term I’m willing to engage with is cypherpunk which has origins in cryptography and other privacy enhancing technologies. Our current situation makes corroboration difficult as privacy has become so grossly stigmatized beyond belief.
I desperately wish for a reunion of like-minded privacy enthusiasts (what was cypherpunks). Unfortunately I’m more often than not met with hostility because our kind is often pessimistic, critical, and honestly paranoid of everyone else being feds lol
It’s a tough struggle but I think the other _*punks were an attempt at renewing the movements of old in a new way.
Those are sci-fi genres generally describing a dystopic future strongly leaned to a particular technology and is mainly related to it’s esthetic.
Atompunk is a future society based in nuclear technology. Steam, diesel are other known alternatives.
Punk Punk is an umbrella term:
They varied considerably, but all have one of the following in common with cyberpunk:
- A world built around a particular technology that is pervasive and extrapolated to a highly sophisticated level.
- A gritty or transreal urban style.
- A cyberpunk-inspired approach to exploring social themes within a Speculative Fiction setting.
Considering this, what’s the world / society we’re living in? Fuel punk? Fossil punk?
I think as a “genre”, it refers to being more than an aesthetic, but also a setting. It’s probably bastardized by now from the original meaning, but I’d wager that looking into the etymology of steampunk might help you find what you’re looking for.
From there, it was probably like…“Well, steampunk, but with X! Xpunk!”
Just a naming convention.
I mean I get that it’s used that way, but that doesn’t address what I want to know - are these “more than aesthetic”, or is it watering down what punk means by being applied too broadly?
I tend to think it’s the latter, because while the three I called out specifically are an aesthetic, they are also “alternative present/future” in a rebellious and/or politicized sort of way. They are sort of “what if?” Or “this would be good/bad/interesting”.
I don’t think the others really have that quality, but I’m not deeply involved with anything that would really help sort it out. So here I am :)
Only cyberpunk and SolarPunk are punk.
The others follow the suffix, like a watergategate. They’re inspired by what Cyberpunk did and use the name as a reflection of the similarities in being a style.
Yup, poplar use makes them just a naming convention now.
Ugh and then CDPR used a genre as a name for their game, tarnishing it.
Nah Cyberpunk the TTRPG is from 88, it came out 6 years after the word was first coined. Hardly tarnishing it.
Hadn’t heard of that! I doubt many others have either.
It was a thing back in the day. Its just that the day was 30 odd years ago.
