The quicker Hamas is defeated and the war is over, the quicker the humanitarian crisis can be solved. Hamas existing and the humanitarian crisis are inseparably linked to one another. As long as Hamas holds control over parts of the strip, nobody can make sure that aid doesn’t get diverted from the intended recipients.
While I would personally send aid regardless - because even if only some of it reaches civilians, it would still be the morally right thing to do - I can understand why people who are personally affected by Hamas terror have a different view of this.
Do you ever have doubts about yourself, your political views, your opinions and knowledge? Do you ever think twice about what you’re writing, perhaps even writing a comment and then not submitting it, because you are not sure about it anymore? I do, all the time, and while this is deeply uncomfortable, I wish you some of this discomfort as well. I think it would do you good.
Recently I’ve found them to be fascinating examples of indoctrination. I admit it’s more fun to watch others engage with them but sometimes I can’t help it.
You know I can read this as well, right? I have no interest in frustrating anyone. I’m frustrated enough myself, I don’t need to share this misery with others.
Do you really think what I’m doing is propaganda? If you were in charge of a unit for online propaganda, would you order to someone to be doing what I’m doing, writing long rambling comments that are at no point applauding how Israel is conducting warfare, that are criticizing its government, that come without clear conclusions - in a community where what I’m doing is largely falling on deaf ears, where people like you are writing responses so insulting that even the moderators here have to step in?
You appear exceptionally confident, yet your arguments often consist of nothing but generic talking points, are paper-thin without an ounce of nuance. That’s not meant to be insulting, but merely an observation.
I can’t look into your mind, but that’s how you are conducting yourself here. If there is any doubt, any uncertainty, any nuance in your thought, you are not sharing it - or I missed it entirely.
You mean my point being that Israel will not really leave Palestinians alone when Hamas is “eliminated” (good luck, BTW) given their incredibly long history of human rights violations, apartheid, land grabbing, and ethnic cleansing?
Seems more to me like you might be taking issues with these facts.
This conflict is far more complicated than just blaming it on one party alone. I can only advice you to strive for a more nuanced understanding of it, because if you keep maintaining a view this one-sided for long enough, you will unknowingly learn not just to ignore evidence to the contrary about this conflict, but any other topic that you already have a more or less firm opinion on. You do not want to become that kind of person.
A starving person can, at least in theory, surrender and recover, might have a small chance of learning the errors of their ways and making the best out of the rest of their lives. Someone who has been shot dead or killed otherwise is dead forever. No redemption in their character ark, just a sudden end to it all. That’s all theory though, entirely pointless theory. In practice, this won’t happen. Hamas would rather have every last man, woman and child who isn’t on their member list succumb to starvation before any of them have to even miss a meal. It’s a win-win for them: They can blame the suffering and deaths from starvation, just like from bombings, on Israel entirely and enough people around the world will eagerly accept this narrative, even though it takes two to tango.
Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but this entire conflict has to be one of very few in history where one side is actively trying to increase the suffering on their own side as a weapon of war and manipulation. I cannot think of many other wars where one side implements deliberate measures for more of their own people to die for the purposes of both domestic and foreign propaganda - and being so successful at doing the latter in particular, albeit with plenty of outside help. There really aren’t many equivalents I can think of. The Japanese Empire in WW2 and Khmer Rouge perhaps. The latter is perhaps the most apt comparison, even though what they were doing to their people was being treated as a secret, as they also had a strong support base among the academic far-left in the West, just like Hamas today, with these intelligent, highly educated idealists deliberately ignoring readily available evidence in favor of maintaining their ideologically-driven views.
There is October 7 denial out there that is completely indistinguishable from Holocaust denial in its mechanisms. The same conspiratorial thinking, the same inane and insane excuses, just with a predominately (but not exclusively) far-left twist instead of a far-right one. As someone who considers themselves fairly left of the center on most issues, it’s quite eye-opening to see just how vulnerable people I have a fair bit in common are to the same kind of manipulation, the same errors of judgment as outright fascists.
How on Earth do you fight such an enemy and how do you break this spell they have over so many people in the world? There’s a reason why I said that the quicker the war is over, the better. Both the Japanese and the Khmer Rouge were defeated through military action and in both cases, just like with Hamas, any delays in their demise would have resulted in an enormous amount of additional suffering, despite the fact that the methods used to remove them were anything but gentle. That is what Israel has been doing, but it’s important to keep in mind that they are neither the US nor Vietnam, that they can not afford to throw people into the meat grinder. They are more than willing to trade time, Palestinian concrete and also Palestinian lives for keeping their own soldiers safe. Despite the mostly toothless international backlash, this strategy is working, but it is not fast enough for today’s world with its collective median attention span of eight seconds. There is no urban combat equivalent to the breakneck-speed island hopping of WW2 to be found here.
I’m not really worried about the military outcome of this war. I think it’s only a matter of time - time which civilians in Gaza don’t have though. There is no intentional genocide happening here, but at some point, the number of civilian dead through both Hamas concerted efforts and sheer indifference on the side of the Israeli government will become impossible to ignore and impossible to excuse by the aforementioned valuing of their own side over the enemy. Maybe it’s time to take risks, but that is an almost impossible call to make in a country so small, among a people so small, everyone knows someone who is personally affected by this war. Netanyahu won’t make it, he’s too worried about is fruitless endeavor of saving his own skin - and the IDF, for as much as it is representative of almost the entirety of Israeli society, including people who oppose the ruling coalition, is still beholden to the civilian government and can not on its own decide to accelerate the speed of their assault. Not to mention, a faster war means more civilian deaths in the short term (even if it results in less suffering overall), creating more international outrage, which Israel can only afford up to a point.
Another hostage exchange ceasefire might give Palestinian civilians the breather they need, but I’m not holding my breath it’s happening and it would most certainly benefit Hamas more.
To sum this up, a slow war like we have it now is terrible, a faster war is also terrible, but potentially the less terrible alternative in the long run, yet impossible to sell to the public. I have no answer.
That’s a lot of words to expend on this quite simple issue. You already said you wouldn’t starve civilians, because you are a reasonable human being. Anybody who would is not being reasonable and should be criticised. That’s it.
A starving person can, at least in theory, surrender and recover, might have a small chance of learning the errors of their ways and making the best out of the rest of their lives.
“The errors of their ways” - being born in Gaza? Lol what
I was talking about Hamas members. I thought it was pretty obvious from the rest of the paragraph, but if it wasn’t, I apologize for causing a misunderstanding.
Yeah I get that but it’s not just Hamas members being starved? I personally don’t think it’s ever acceptable (even if you can somehow target the starvation to non innocent people) but my objection here is mainly to the millions of innocent people being starved. It seems like you agree with this but are resistant to criticising these tactics, how come?
Because there isn’t a coherent starvation tactic. The same Israeli government that has members talking about limiting aid to Palestinians is also having Israeli officers inspect aid trucks at the Egyptian border and letting them through (Egypt and Israel jointly administer the crossing and Israel has the last word there), has also been sending aid through their own borders into Gaza (which is what these protesters are trying to stop). The IDF has entire units that are doing nothing but provide aid to civilians. This doesn’t mesh with the idea that they want to starve these people.
Netanyahu and his government are doing a lot of posturing aimed at their voting base, but then they more or less sneakily don’t follow through with it. They say one thing in public, exclusively in Hebrew (which still gets out and is being translated, of course, and is getting used against them) and then behind the scenes, they do the opposite, e.g. turning utilities back on after a very short period of time, sending aid through, performing secret negotiations, etc.
This is incredibly stupid on every level. They won’t win the next election even if they get every remaining hostage out and catch Sinwar alive, but they refuse to acknowledge this. It’s hurting Israel’s international reputation, it’s creating tensions with allies and within the Israeli society. While I do not think that a left-leaning Israeli government would have responded to October 7 with a more limited war against Hamas in Gaza, I do think they would not have fumbled communication to such a baffling degree.
Then why are so many people starving? Just because they have been diplomatically strong armed into allowing some aid doesn’t mean they aren’t still using starvation as a weapon of war.
And the idea they are “letting them through” is not so simple.
Aid agencies say the chief factors hampering the delivery of lifesaving assistance to Gazans fall almost entirely under Israel’s control — the Israeli inspection process for aid remains lengthy and inefficient; there aren’t enough trucks or fuel inside Gaza to distribute the aid; mechanisms to protect humanitarian workers are unreliable; and commercial goods have only just begun to trickle in.
There are still 100 to 200 trucks per day compared to the average of 500 before the war. This is not enough and the ICJ essentially concluded the same the other day, or at least ruled that Israel needs to do more.
Just because it isn’t blatant and the perpetrator is being careful about their public image doesn’t mean it’s not happening
the perpetrator is being careful about their public image
Israel is anything but careful about their public image. I just mentioned the posturing from the Israeli government, which is the opposite of that. This doesn’t make any sense. What you are alleging is that they are doing what, the starvation carefully, so that nobody notices it’s deliberate? Do you have any idea how massive of a conspiracy would be necessary for this, in a country where government leaks are a regular occurrence? Do you really think the 85% of Israelis who want Netanyahu gone as soon as possible, the same ones who have been protesting Netanyahu for months, even before the war, would put up with this?
500 trucks used to go in on a daily basis. “Aid” that had to be painfully inspected by Israel has been far below that. In other words, Israel actually withheld aid from Gazans, despite “allowing it in”.
this entire conflict has to be one of very few in history where one side is actively trying to increase the suffering on their own side as a weapon of war and manipulation
this is how all asymmetric warfare works. the Boston tea party was meant to provoke a response.
The quicker Hamas is defeated and the war is over, the quicker the humanitarian crisis can be solved. Hamas existing and the humanitarian crisis are inseparably linked to one another. As long as Hamas holds control over parts of the strip, nobody can make sure that aid doesn’t get diverted from the intended recipients.
While I would personally send aid regardless - because even if only some of it reaches civilians, it would still be the morally right thing to do - I can understand why people who are personally affected by Hamas terror have a different view of this.
With Love,
– Your Opressor with over 70 years of Apartheid and Ethnic Cleansing
Do you ever have doubts about yourself, your political views, your opinions and knowledge? Do you ever think twice about what you’re writing, perhaps even writing a comment and then not submitting it, because you are not sure about it anymore? I do, all the time, and while this is deeply uncomfortable, I wish you some of this discomfort as well. I think it would do you good.
Are you implying I don’t? Can I ask why you’d imply that?
The person you are replying to is using a very typical social media propaganda playbook.
Ignore them and move on. They are trying to waste your time, frustrate you, and make you give up.
Yeah you’re probably right.
Recently I’ve found them to be fascinating examples of indoctrination. I admit it’s more fun to watch others engage with them but sometimes I can’t help it.
Who or what do you think indoctrinated me? What do you think you know about me to come to such a conclusion?
I don’t know. I guess just like your comment to me, it’s the way you conduct yourself here.
You know I can read this as well, right? I have no interest in frustrating anyone. I’m frustrated enough myself, I don’t need to share this misery with others.
Do you really think what I’m doing is propaganda? If you were in charge of a unit for online propaganda, would you order to someone to be doing what I’m doing, writing long rambling comments that are at no point applauding how Israel is conducting warfare, that are criticizing its government, that come without clear conclusions - in a community where what I’m doing is largely falling on deaf ears, where people like you are writing responses so insulting that even the moderators here have to step in?
You don’t have to be part of some online unit to spread propaganda. Maybe you just believe some of this outrageous stuff.
You appear exceptionally confident, yet your arguments often consist of nothing but generic talking points, are paper-thin without an ounce of nuance. That’s not meant to be insulting, but merely an observation.
I can’t look into your mind, but that’s how you are conducting yourself here. If there is any doubt, any uncertainty, any nuance in your thought, you are not sharing it - or I missed it entirely.
You mean my point being that Israel will not really leave Palestinians alone when Hamas is “eliminated” (good luck, BTW) given their incredibly long history of human rights violations, apartheid, land grabbing, and ethnic cleansing?
Seems more to me like you might be taking issues with these facts.
There has been a humanitarian crises in Gaza for decades, why do you think they’ve been getting aid for so long?
Unfortunately the crises is called Israel and its backed by the US along with every other western democracy.
This conflict is far more complicated than just blaming it on one party alone. I can only advice you to strive for a more nuanced understanding of it, because if you keep maintaining a view this one-sided for long enough, you will unknowingly learn not just to ignore evidence to the contrary about this conflict, but any other topic that you already have a more or less firm opinion on. You do not want to become that kind of person.
There’s nothing complicated: there’s a nation of racists bigots hellbemt on apartheid, athnic cleansing and genocide. And it’s called Israel.
Thats highly ironic from the person who only posts comments critical of Hamas, while supporting Israel.
At least I hate both of them.
Enlightened centrism is neither enlightened nor centrism.
I just tormented myself writing this and I’m happy to torment you with it:
https://kbin.social/m/world@lemmy.world/t/794481/Kerem-Shalom-crossing-Israeli-protesters-hold-up-aid-trucks-to#entry-comment-4838791
If you still think that’s one-sided support of Israel, then I can’t help you.
I wish you were in charge instead then.
But I can not. Nothing justifies doing this. Even starving an actual member of Hamas as a weapon of war is fucking disgusting
A starving person can, at least in theory, surrender and recover, might have a small chance of learning the errors of their ways and making the best out of the rest of their lives. Someone who has been shot dead or killed otherwise is dead forever. No redemption in their character ark, just a sudden end to it all. That’s all theory though, entirely pointless theory. In practice, this won’t happen. Hamas would rather have every last man, woman and child who isn’t on their member list succumb to starvation before any of them have to even miss a meal. It’s a win-win for them: They can blame the suffering and deaths from starvation, just like from bombings, on Israel entirely and enough people around the world will eagerly accept this narrative, even though it takes two to tango.
Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but this entire conflict has to be one of very few in history where one side is actively trying to increase the suffering on their own side as a weapon of war and manipulation. I cannot think of many other wars where one side implements deliberate measures for more of their own people to die for the purposes of both domestic and foreign propaganda - and being so successful at doing the latter in particular, albeit with plenty of outside help. There really aren’t many equivalents I can think of. The Japanese Empire in WW2 and Khmer Rouge perhaps. The latter is perhaps the most apt comparison, even though what they were doing to their people was being treated as a secret, as they also had a strong support base among the academic far-left in the West, just like Hamas today, with these intelligent, highly educated idealists deliberately ignoring readily available evidence in favor of maintaining their ideologically-driven views.
There is October 7 denial out there that is completely indistinguishable from Holocaust denial in its mechanisms. The same conspiratorial thinking, the same inane and insane excuses, just with a predominately (but not exclusively) far-left twist instead of a far-right one. As someone who considers themselves fairly left of the center on most issues, it’s quite eye-opening to see just how vulnerable people I have a fair bit in common are to the same kind of manipulation, the same errors of judgment as outright fascists.
How on Earth do you fight such an enemy and how do you break this spell they have over so many people in the world? There’s a reason why I said that the quicker the war is over, the better. Both the Japanese and the Khmer Rouge were defeated through military action and in both cases, just like with Hamas, any delays in their demise would have resulted in an enormous amount of additional suffering, despite the fact that the methods used to remove them were anything but gentle. That is what Israel has been doing, but it’s important to keep in mind that they are neither the US nor Vietnam, that they can not afford to throw people into the meat grinder. They are more than willing to trade time, Palestinian concrete and also Palestinian lives for keeping their own soldiers safe. Despite the mostly toothless international backlash, this strategy is working, but it is not fast enough for today’s world with its collective median attention span of eight seconds. There is no urban combat equivalent to the breakneck-speed island hopping of WW2 to be found here.
I’m not really worried about the military outcome of this war. I think it’s only a matter of time - time which civilians in Gaza don’t have though. There is no intentional genocide happening here, but at some point, the number of civilian dead through both Hamas concerted efforts and sheer indifference on the side of the Israeli government will become impossible to ignore and impossible to excuse by the aforementioned valuing of their own side over the enemy. Maybe it’s time to take risks, but that is an almost impossible call to make in a country so small, among a people so small, everyone knows someone who is personally affected by this war. Netanyahu won’t make it, he’s too worried about is fruitless endeavor of saving his own skin - and the IDF, for as much as it is representative of almost the entirety of Israeli society, including people who oppose the ruling coalition, is still beholden to the civilian government and can not on its own decide to accelerate the speed of their assault. Not to mention, a faster war means more civilian deaths in the short term (even if it results in less suffering overall), creating more international outrage, which Israel can only afford up to a point.
Another hostage exchange ceasefire might give Palestinian civilians the breather they need, but I’m not holding my breath it’s happening and it would most certainly benefit Hamas more.
To sum this up, a slow war like we have it now is terrible, a faster war is also terrible, but potentially the less terrible alternative in the long run, yet impossible to sell to the public. I have no answer.
That’s a lot of words to expend on this quite simple issue. You already said you wouldn’t starve civilians, because you are a reasonable human being. Anybody who would is not being reasonable and should be criticised. That’s it.
“The errors of their ways” - being born in Gaza? Lol what
I was talking about Hamas members. I thought it was pretty obvious from the rest of the paragraph, but if it wasn’t, I apologize for causing a misunderstanding.
Yeah I get that but it’s not just Hamas members being starved? I personally don’t think it’s ever acceptable (even if you can somehow target the starvation to non innocent people) but my objection here is mainly to the millions of innocent people being starved. It seems like you agree with this but are resistant to criticising these tactics, how come?
Because there isn’t a coherent starvation tactic. The same Israeli government that has members talking about limiting aid to Palestinians is also having Israeli officers inspect aid trucks at the Egyptian border and letting them through (Egypt and Israel jointly administer the crossing and Israel has the last word there), has also been sending aid through their own borders into Gaza (which is what these protesters are trying to stop). The IDF has entire units that are doing nothing but provide aid to civilians. This doesn’t mesh with the idea that they want to starve these people.
Netanyahu and his government are doing a lot of posturing aimed at their voting base, but then they more or less sneakily don’t follow through with it. They say one thing in public, exclusively in Hebrew (which still gets out and is being translated, of course, and is getting used against them) and then behind the scenes, they do the opposite, e.g. turning utilities back on after a very short period of time, sending aid through, performing secret negotiations, etc.
This is incredibly stupid on every level. They won’t win the next election even if they get every remaining hostage out and catch Sinwar alive, but they refuse to acknowledge this. It’s hurting Israel’s international reputation, it’s creating tensions with allies and within the Israeli society. While I do not think that a left-leaning Israeli government would have responded to October 7 with a more limited war against Hamas in Gaza, I do think they would not have fumbled communication to such a baffling degree.
Then why are so many people starving? Just because they have been diplomatically strong armed into allowing some aid doesn’t mean they aren’t still using starvation as a weapon of war.
And the idea they are “letting them through” is not so simple.
From here
There are still 100 to 200 trucks per day compared to the average of 500 before the war. This is not enough and the ICJ essentially concluded the same the other day, or at least ruled that Israel needs to do more.
Just because it isn’t blatant and the perpetrator is being careful about their public image doesn’t mean it’s not happening
Israel is anything but careful about their public image. I just mentioned the posturing from the Israeli government, which is the opposite of that. This doesn’t make any sense. What you are alleging is that they are doing what, the starvation carefully, so that nobody notices it’s deliberate? Do you have any idea how massive of a conspiracy would be necessary for this, in a country where government leaks are a regular occurrence? Do you really think the 85% of Israelis who want Netanyahu gone as soon as possible, the same ones who have been protesting Netanyahu for months, even before the war, would put up with this?
500 trucks used to go in on a daily basis. “Aid” that had to be painfully inspected by Israel has been far below that. In other words, Israel actually withheld aid from Gazans, despite “allowing it in”.
Edit: here is a good article that describes how less than 200 fet in every day despite a daily basic need for 500. On one day in January, only 30 crossed in.
this is how all asymmetric warfare works. the Boston tea party was meant to provoke a response.
Removed by mod