- cross-posted to:
- linux@programming.dev
- cross-posted to:
- linux@programming.dev
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Wait … is there a perception (or reality?) that most Linux users are programmers?
I’m an introvert, but all programmers I know use Windows (and badly in the sense they aren’t power users).
That’s a logical fallacy, all dogs are animals does not imply that all animals are dogs. Even if all programmers you know use Windows that could still mean that all Linux users are programmers.
That being said several relatives use Linux because I refused to help with IT unless they had Linux, and since then they mostly hadn’t needed IT support. So it’s not true that all Linux users are programmers, but a good percentage of us are.
I was not explaining my logic nor my beliefs, just describing my smol sample (introvert!), as a btw fun fact.
But I was under the impression that there is no distinguishable difference between which OSs use programmes vs non-programmers (and the other way around).
Perhaps bcs I fail to se any specific connection between the two. But yes, my logic would be that both types use and are used by both to roughly the same extent.(Haha, exactly same experience with relatives - forced them on Linux, never had anything non-trivial to fix since then.)
I’m a programmer! I use Linux and Windows. In fact, I’m now in my second job in a Microsoft shop (and no, neither were/are .NET…). And I’ve had exactly zero jobs where I was issued or allowed to use a Linux machine.
allowed
Yeah, wtf, what did Linux ever do to
the great furry communitysys admins?Our group is still fully on Windows all the things (except like two virtual servers), desktops all run W10.
I will again plead in this years strategy to not upgrade to W11, if for nothing else ‘moral reasons’.
I’ll be the only one tho.
I would want to « force » my relatives to use Linux. My wife had an unsupported MacBook Pro from 2012, so I managed to convince her it would be safer to switch. Since then, she hasn’t used macOS, but she also hasn’t used Linux because she can use her work provided windows laptop 😅
I also proposed to my mom to provide IT support remotely to her via Linux, but she prefers using windows and relying on an old friend who is forcing her to buy a lot of Microsoft products otherwise he refuses to help her.
I hope I’ll at least be able to teach my kids that Linux ain’t scary 🙏
There’s some hardcore conflation going on that assumes that people with technical skills will tend to be good at everything, or that they’ll gravitate towards the uber-geeky stuff.
In my experience it’s a very wide spectrum. Lots of programmers are strictly focused on the language they use and don’t care to know anything about the OS, or networking, even computers. They are definitely not jacks of all trades.
There are people who can do programming as well as system administration and build a PC and build some book shelves and so on. But that’s a very specific type of person who’s a tinkerer and happens to be into programming, it’s not because they’re a programmer.
Yes, a power tinkerer!
And if something needs to be programmed (or just coded, bcs copypasta), then that’s what’s gonna happen.
If IT won’t accommodate my ticket in the way I want Im just gonna write another ticket for access rights.
In addition to the perception that you have to be “good at computers” (aka a programmer) to use Linux, in my experience a lot of Linux media outlets (websites, YT channels, podcasts, etc) tend to be heavy on advanced features and tools without much explanation in layman’s terms and tend to be geared towards an IT professional/hobbyist audience, which can reinforce that stereotype among those (like me) who are not.
Yeah, this explanation makes the most sense to me.
Just a generalisation that “good at computers” is a programmer. So no Apple programmers :P (joking ofc)
Linux use among devs is much higher than gen pop.
https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2023/#section-most-popular-technologies-operating-system
Keep in mind, this adds up to more than 100% because it wasn’t an exclusive choice question, it was multiple.
note if you sum up the linux distros here (excluding ChromeOS) you get 58,4% for personal use and 54,54% for professional use (of course keep in mind that there’s some godless bastards who dual boot 2 linux distros that could skew these statistics).
Also note how that implies Linux is the most popular OS for professional use.
Anyways, I wish these stats wouldn’t split Linux into distros, at least not by default. Linux distros are mostly the same and you’re still using (GNU*/)Linux splitting it makes it seem less popular tan it actually is.
*unless you’re using something like Alpine ig
Except it wasn’t an exclusive choice question, it was multi-selection. So you could choose more than one OS (or distro). So this really doesn’t give much of an idea what the main OS is that people use. But it’s still going to be way higher than general users.
duh, still a useful statistic IMO
Curious how they define professional use, like my work desktop is windows, but all the servers are rhel
Most of the programmers I know (including myself) use Linux or BSD, but that all depends on who you associate with. A lot of companies are purely Windows shops and others just throw their programmers mac books and call it a day. At my last company I was only briefly allowed to use Linux until they decided it was no good as I couldn’t use whatever resource intensive corporate garbage security software of the year they bought.
I’m also not a programmer but here’s why Linux is my daily driver:
I like it.
Gnome is so much more cozy than windows
KDE Plasma is so much more snappy and functional than Windows. Linux has lots of good options.
cinnamon is so uhh default in Linux Mint and i like it
I love the diversity in this thread
Windows 10 AME also feels very cozy, like Win 7, but its days are numbered unless I stop using internet on it.
Even Windows users are shitting on 11 and questioning using Windows.
Gods, I miss Windows 7 UI. I really dislike the push for everything to be flat nowadays. Aero, my beloved!
I have no formal tech background, but I’m pretty damn good with it. And I like Arch and Debian with XFCE.
Linux, on the other hand, can easily boot up on a 10-year-old laptop with just 2GB of RAM, and work fine.
I’m not sure a modern day browser would be just fine with “only” 2GiB, unfortunately.
Maybe with zRAM and a bit of swap it could run quite ok 🤷
As long as the drive the swap is on is an SSD, yeah absolutely
4GB works. My kids use a T410 from 2010 with a SSD and it is a pleasant experience for daily use (browsing, YouTube, small Linux games)
I’ve tried Firefox limited to 1 GB for a laugh. It’s usable. It won’t do many tabs at the same time but it’s usable.
You can actually go lower than that but you’ll start to run into limitations with YouTube videos etc.
There are also other browsers out there that are more light-weight but perhaps not as feature-full as Firefox. Giving up extensions alone reduces a lot of complexity. If you fire up the package installer on any Linux distro and search for “browser” you’ll find a ton. There aren’t many engines but there are a lot of browsers.
Interesting. How do you limit RAM for an application?
With cgroups, it’s a standard kernel feature. You can limit RAM, CPU, network access, lots of things. It’s used in Docker, LXC, Kubernetes and lots of container solutions.
Cool, thank you!
I have 3GB of RAM on my PC running Linux Mint, using LibreWolf, it works pretty great for me, I mean I can’t open 100 tabs, but 10-15 is possible
Im using a 4gb laptop with Xfce, and its definitely struggling sometimes. Even though it’s usable, I doubt 2gb would be enough
I used to have only 4GB in my old Linux HTPC, didn’t take much for it to choke when using the browser. Upgraded to 16GB and no issues since
Lynx 4 Life!
That’s what palemoon is for. It wouldn’t be my first choice, but if you don’t have the RAM to run
crysislibrewolf on high it’ll work.There’s Linux dists that can only requires less than 200 MB of RAM. Absolute Linux for an example, has a minimum system requirement of 64 MB RAM. Plenty of space left for memory hungry softwares like a browser.
I’ve tried to use Fedora Workstation in VM (GNOME Boxes) with only 1GiB RAM. And it is even usable and UI is responsible for GNOME and Firefox, but applications start more slowly. All those at cost of higher CPU usage. Probably it performs well because Fedora uses swap on ZRam, and it makes the system more reliable.
I feel like Linux would be easier to pick up and use for a non power user starting from scratch like my mother-in-law. It’s so much easier to download programs with the package manager and settings are so much easier to navigate
And to use the computer without being bombarded by ads
Helped my SO fix Sims 4 on her W11 laptop recently; lock screen ads, start menu ads, pre-installed bloatware begging for money
I even asked how she deals with all of that and she basically said “I dunno it just does that, if you can make it stop that’d be nice ig but just get Sims to worl for now”
Needless to say I got Sims 4 to work (removing cachedir did the trick) AND uninstalled the bloatware and turned off ad-related settings
I’d honestly have proposed (if they don’t need programs that only run on windows) “we could put linux on it and that should fix these issues” and put Linux Mint or Fedora on it (better if you choose not them unless they really want to deal with all the choices, most likely they won’t wnt to tho) and just tell them the basics of how to install software and stuff.
I have jokingly mentioned I’d fix it by just installing Linux
I wonder when that stops being a joke
I’d say now’s the time, by now I mean as soon as it’s appropriate.
I was once asked if I could crack a password of a windows PC in an office cause the guy who used to work there no longer remembers it and they wanted to reuse the old PC. I asked if they need to recover any data, if they used any software that would be incompatible with Linux (not like this but directly mentioning software and asked for a list of stuff they use) and then told them it would simply be easier to install Linux on the thing, not only it’s easier but since it’s an old machine running windows 7 it’s also more secure and the computer will perform well.
During the installation we found out that the computer is glorified junk, took ages to even attempt to format the disk to ext4. Still got to install Linux Mint on another one of their computers tho, big success.
It’ll come back.
They’ve never come back for me.
I find it amazing that so many distros with volunteers manage to curate a vast software ecosystem, reasonably successfully and yet some of the largest companies on the planet, worth more than $1T each cannot manage to find the resources to do it efficiently.
Imagine firing up a cmd or ps prompt in Windows and tying in: msiexec install adobe-hipster-app and it just works.
Have you tried Chocolatey? https://chocolatey.org/. It’s a package manager for Windows and works great, much like brew for Mac. Or, if you prefer portable installation of programs without requiring admin, try Scoop (https://scoop.sh/). Of course, I’d rather use paru or yay on Arch, but I’m glad these options exist.
I find it hilarious that Microsoft even suggests these tools on their own GitHub page for the Windows Terminal.
If I knew how to “sudo” on Windows then requiring admin wouldn’t be so bad.
I don’t even know how to write “hello world” in python but I use vanilla Arch XD
Same here, I work in the arts and can’t code a thing, but I use Arch (btw) as my daily driver.
This goes hard
If I recall correctly Arch has … ssh into wifey’s laptop … python installed out of the box.
Run up a console and type python, and hit enter. Type in print (“Hello World”) and hit enter. There you go!
If you lack a python: $ yay -S python.
Vanilla arch would be pacman -S python 🥸🥸🥸🥸🥸🥸🥸🥸🥸🥸
You can get yay on arch too
And I recommend that very much!
It was my first Linux distro after using Microsoft stuff for ages and let me tell you: it was a big mistake. It was absolutely confusing, had to use terminal for so many things with even msdos commands that I forgot that existed, broke it 3 times by just trying to automount the other drivers and a host of other things.
End up switching to Linux mint and the transition went much smoother after that. I’m going back to it eventually though. I actually like it a lot.
EndeavourIS is the Arch for people like you 😉 (and me)
Stephen Fry the comedian/tv presenter is also a huge linux advocate. Specifically Ubuntu. He’s been using it for decades at this point.
As if I needed more reasons to love Stephen Fry!
I can’t program, but I only use Linux on both my laptop and desktop. All I really do on my computers is browse the web, light photo/video editing, print the occasional document, organize my photos, and play A LOT of video games. I was dual booting windows for a bit there for the games that won’t work on Linux, but I soon discovered that those games weren’t really worth dealing with the annoyances I had with windows for how often I actually wanted to play them… except CoD, but I have an Xbox so I just play that there. Deleting my windows partition was a great choice.
I am so, so close to doing the same. Still have a small partition carved out for CoD and Windows. I just find myself booting in to it less and less.
Thank goodness MicroVision seems to be keen on continuing to flog that dead horse with a Warzone focus, means I can finally be free.
yeah, if it weren’t for my fiancée playing idk if I’d still be playing CoD at all.
get them addicted to BattleBits Remastered, runs smoothly on Linux and is fun as shit.
Only thing keeping my windows partition alive is the pain it seems to be to set up sim racing gear and games and servers on Linux.
I’d be in the same situation if I wasn’t too broke for any of that
I’m not sure if this is part of the “frequency illusion”, but I’ve noticed a lot more mainstream media talking about Linux as a viable alternative.
Probably because you associate more with lemmy, I think most lemmy users use linux
I think Lemmy plays a part in it but also all the stuff with MS recently (and people getting tired of it).
I think most Lemmy users use Linux
I was thinking about this earlier today. I’d love to do a Lemmy wide survey to see how true this is or to what extent.
I highly doubt most do, just that the percentage of Linux users may be higher than on many other platforms.
The most used platform for Lemmy is likely still Windows or a mobile OS.
Yeah clearly Lemmy might have a lot of Linux users because Lemmy in itself is really niche. Way more than Linux.
And recent fumbling of msft with recall
It’s not, I’ve been using Linux for 20 years and it’s been gradually getting more and more exposure on the main media. I think there was a huge push with Steam Machines and then another one with Proton, then every Windows screw up bumps it a little more. We’re probably going to get another bump in popularity in a short while when Windows 11 enables the new feature that will take screenshots of everything you do (credit cards, passwords, etc) and use an AI to search through them.
I’ve definitely seen more video content of people trying Linux or moving over completely after that announcement from MS.
The most “programming” I can do is make a basic scratch project and print(“Hello World!”) in python, but linux is great
How do you do that in python…
Impressive, you look like a very skilled programmer, management has told me you are now tasked with building a hyper-realistic virtual simulation of a Large Hadron Collider including detailed simulations of the lives of the actual workers and their families, you have a week or you’re fired by the firing squad, no you’re not allowed to ask why we need it or who we are or why we chose you and it is especially forbidden to ask for more time (and no you can’t ask why that is either). See you in a week, have a nice day :).
I am ready to
integrate with Open AI’s APIdevelop an LLM.
This is bad practice.
More accurately it should look something like this:
# Load sys library for exiting with status code import sys def sayHelloWorld(outPhrase str="Hello World"): # Main function, print a phrase and return NoneType print(outPhrase) return None if __name__=="__main__": # Provide output and exit cleanly when run from shell sayHelloWorld() sys.exit(0) else: # Exit with rc!=0 when not run from shell sys.exit(1)Fellow pythonistas, how can I make this code more pythonic?
My wife has used Linux for over a decade. She primarily uses a web browser, office suite and a money management app.
Those have all been well-covered by Linux for years.
what does she use for money management?
Moneydance. That was a choice made years ago. It works fine, but we haven’t reviewed the options in years. On the plus side, Moneydance is cross-platform, syncs to a remote server, has mobile apps and is reasonably priced.
thanks. I have never used one but have been contemplating doing so.
Why is it that people think Linux distros are for programmers or tech people only? This is the reason why we don’t get many people on Linux distros.
Because installing a different operating system than the one that came pre installed is a non zero amount of effort.
I think this here is probably one of the larger reasons. A large portion of users barely know the difference between a browser and a search engine, let alone the operating system they are using, and nor do they care. People just use whatever their computer comes with out of the box. Most people probably couldn’t tell you the difference between Windows 11 and a Linux distro customized to look exactly the same.
Because they live with old news and don’t update tech news knowledge as often as tech savy people do.
Terminal inputs seems like coding. Back in the day you can mess with everything by coding. Having to spend time on forums and searching Google to fix problems that are Terminal inputs only is not something people want to do and what people are passionate about a thing or it is their hobby do.
Most people use what is in front of them, works, and what they are use too. I don’t have time to fix the wifi issue on my 10 year old linux laptop I just plugged it in. Other option is to reinstall windows every 6 months
Always love to see article of non programmer people using Linux or Emacs!
Meanwhile I’m here still stuck in
vim
Linux used to be for nerds, programmers and tech people.
Now, it’s probably easier to use Linux than Windows.
I have my Boomer dad using Linux Mint on his laptop, but he was still using Windows on his desktop PC.
Then it updated to Windows 11 and he HATES it and asked me for help to put Linux Mint on his desktop as well.
This is a real estate agent in his 70s who needs help making scans and downloading email attachments.
Yeah, I think Windows is becoming overly designed and optimized.
Leading to unnecessary complexities.
And 99% of computer use for most people is in a browser. No need for an overly complex OS, with constant stupid pop-ups to ruin that browser experience.
Defintiely! I recently bought a used Thinkpad and slapped Pop!_OS on it for my father-in-law. He’s 73 and he’s loving it! He proudly tells his friends that he is now “a part of a computer revolution”.
lmao, I wouldn’t call it a revolution. Simply different options, alternatives and/or values.
I’m a video producer and writer, I only use linux.
Ooh, does Linux have good open source video editing? I remember back in the day that was tricky. (Or I am misremembering.)
Not open source but DaVinci Resolve is the best editor around and supports Linux.
I do video editing myself in Linux and Kdenlive does pretty much everything I need. The UI is a bit odd to learn but I’d imagine any new editing software is gonna have a learning curve of some sort.
I dislike the paradigm that there are “techy people/programmers” and “tech illiterates/non programmers”. Anyone can develop the skills to properly use unix interfaces given proper training; and I know that’s true because the whole world used to run (mostly) unix on the desktop before corporate took over. Unix doesn’t need to be windowsified/macosified to get people to move over; people need to unlearn the interfaces corporate has brainwashed them with for generations. There are so many more interesting user interfaces than just what Windows and MacOS provide; graphical or otherwise.
I don’t know any programming languages but can navigate around Linux, both TUI and GUI.
